Unrealistic expectations

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fastbrk4
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I just had to repost my thoughts in a new post---

I'm often confused by comments I read on this board concerning "lack of discipline" or "program isn't going in right direction", etc. What do we mean when we are talking discipline? Do you mean basketball discipline or personal/life discipline. One--I've never heard of any of the basketball players having off the court problems. I've only missed about 10 home games for the last 22 years and one thing I've noticed about Ole Miss players is they are always very sportsmanlike, have great attitudes, don't showboat, etc. Compare that to what you see out of players from other schools.

For some, winning is all that matters anyway. Oftentimes "problem" players are the "best" players, but the best players that Ole Miss have produced have always been good people--Gerald Glass, Rahim Lockhart, Keith Carter, Justin Reed, etc, -- these are just a few that come to mind. Not NBA all-stars but nonetheless they were good college players and good people.

If we're talking basketball discipline then I assume we're talking defense, rebounding, and shot selection. One game earlier, all of the above looked great against Arkansas, granted Arkansas played a lousy game, but made a couple of runs that Ole Miss pushed back. Against LSU, Terrico White was running the point for the 2nd time in his college career. You will look like crap when you are playing a position for the 2nd time at the college level. Ole Miss had 4 and 1 sophomore on the floor during much of the game.

Instead of discipline, I think you mean they are inconsistent. Show me a team that you can take away their 2 best players and 6th man and switch point guards in your first SEC game and have consistent performance. This is unrealistic. This is a brand new team, not a 3rd year team that AK is working with here. Ed Murphy years, "exciting"? I about fell out of my chair. 1000 fans, me one of them, students with paper bags over their heads, getting pounded by 40 and 50 points by Prairie View A&M--exciting??? The two years Ed had Glass were wasted. We should have been in the NCAA tourney for 2 years and instead we made one NIT.

Sometimes I don't know why I read this board because we have some very uneducated basketball fans.
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ekmjr1
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Good post. You also now have to consider what LSU did to State too. LSU is the best team in the West by far, so the loss does not seem nearly as big to me now.

This is going to be a tough year for us with the losses and our youth, but my guess is AK will win a few we don't expect and that the season will turn out OK in the end. I doubt we make any tournaments, but there is always the outside chance we get an NIT bid again.

Give the man some time and he will get us on the right track I believe. Even his worst games or better than many of the past years as fastbrk4 stated, so it's not all bad.
done

ekmjr1 wrote: Even his worst games or better than many of the past years as fastbrk4 stated, so it's not all bad.
Have to disagree with you on that one. I have been watching Ole Miss Basketball for more than 30 years and the worst games in AK's reign are among, if not alone as, the most unorganized and fundamentally unsound games I have ever seen.

Defense, or even any defensive pretense, blocking out, passing and running a structured offense is almost nonexistent. In fairness though this is also reflective of the overall deterioration of the college game in general.

It is absolutely painful to watch at times.
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felicianareb
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Rebchuck18 wrote:
ekmjr1 wrote: Even his worst games or better than many of the past years as fastbrk4 stated, so it's not all bad.
Have to disagree with you on that one. I have been watching Ole Miss Basketball for more than 30 years and the worst games in AK's reign are among, if not alone as, the most unorganized and fundamentally unsound games I have ever seen.

Defense, or even any defensive pretense, blocking out, passing and running a structured offense is almost nonexistent. In fairness though this is also reflective of the overall deterioration of the college game in general.

It is absolutely painful to watch at times.
I'm with you on this one rebchuck. To some degree I think we have a long perspective versus a short perspective argument going on here. I agree with your point about the overall deterioration of the college game, especially on the defensive side. Inexperience has nothing to do with dropped arms, uncontested shots, failure to box out, or leaving your feet at the first sign of fake. These items and more are just fundamental basketball that should have been learned long before a player reaches college.
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ekmjr1
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I agree as well that the game is different today than it was say 10 years or more back. They really don't play a lot of skilled basketball today. If you wanted to see skill and defense, go back and watch some of the games when Bob Weltlick(spelling?) was coaching. Now that was well coached basketball. However, the shot clock completey took away Bob's entire game plan, so no way it works in today's game.

It's all about run and gun and shoot it up as fast as you can. As you said, it's not just AK's style, it's this way across the board really. Back in the old days, there was much more discipline when it came to setting up on offense and running plays. When you did get an outside shooter that could fill it up, they were usually pure shooters that had real touch.
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Chucky_38
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I'm not a big basketball fan and I'm uneducated when it comes to the game. That being said I don't care about what style is played now or then. I just want to win. I want us to be competitive. And AK has elevated our program. No doubt about it. This year will be tough but overall we are in such better shape than we were before AK. He has made Ole Miss basketball fun. For me anyway.
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fastbrk4 wrote:I just had to repost my thoughts in a new post---

I'm often confused by comments I read on this board concerning "lack of discipline" or "program isn't going in right direction", etc. What do we mean when we are talking discipline? Do you mean basketball discipline or personal/life discipline. One--I've never heard of any of the basketball players having off the court problems. I've only missed about 10 home games for the last 22 years and one thing I've noticed about Ole Miss players is they are always very sportsmanlike, have great attitudes, don't showboat, etc. Compare that to what you see out of players from other schools.

For some, winning is all that matters anyway. Oftentimes "problem" players are the "best" players, but the best players that Ole Miss have produced have always been good people--Gerald Glass, Rahim Lockhart, Keith Carter, Justin Reed, etc, -- these are just a few that come to mind. Not NBA all-stars but nonetheless they were good college players and good people.

If we're talking basketball discipline then I assume we're talking defense, rebounding, and shot selection. One game earlier, all of the above looked great against Arkansas, granted Arkansas played a lousy game, but made a couple of runs that Ole Miss pushed back. Against LSU, Terrico White was running the point for the 2nd time in his college career. You will look like crap when you are playing a position for the 2nd time at the college level. Ole Miss had 4 and 1 sophomore on the floor during much of the game.

Instead of discipline, I think you mean they are inconsistent. Show me a team that you can take away their 2 best players and 6th man and switch point guards in your first SEC game and have consistent performance. This is unrealistic. This is a brand new team, not a 3rd year team that AK is working with here. Ed Murphy years, "exciting"? I about fell out of my chair. 1000 fans, me one of them, students with paper bags over their heads, getting pounded by 40 and 50 points by Prairie View A&M--exciting??? The two years Ed had Glass were wasted. We should have been in the NCAA tourney for 2 years and instead we made one NIT.

Sometimes I don't know why I read this board because we have some very uneducated basketball fans.
This was a great post, and do not leave the board, I enjoy your insight and your eloquent way of posting.

The Ed Murphy years being "exciting" comes from me, and yes, I suppose that is laughable, but, I meant it to mean as compared to years previous. With the exception being 1981, as I remember, Ole Miss was a doormat for the SEC (a terrible conference than, period, save UK, of course). I was merely a child in the Murphy era and remember that, at least with Glass, Sean Murphy, and the like, there was some winning going on, which was a switch from what I had seen in years before.

Also, I have to add that as a guy born unto two Indiana grads that are friends to Bob Knight, Ole Miss was kind of an after-thought when Bloomington was in the thick of things in the Big Ten year after year (1987 National Champs, Keith Smart, baby!!).

That said, Fast, I agree that AK has done alot for this program and I am excited for the future. This all started with Rob Evans, he gave way to Barnes (who had some success), but am very happy to see Kennedy at the reigns.

As far as the deteriation of college hoops goes, I disagree with those that say such. Like all things, the game is going thru evolution, this ain't your Granddaddy's short short wearing, yawn producing, slow going game that it once was. Todays game is offense, ppl like to see offense, just the way it is. To me, todays game, AK's offense, is alot like a friend of mine said years and years ago about UNLV and Tark's offense- controlled chaos.
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rewalters
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OMNOB wrote: To me, todays game, AK's offense, is alot like a friend of mine said years and years ago about UNLV and Tark's offense- controlled chaos.
Tark's UNLV teams were also known for their great defense, but I will say their offense would run you in the ground which helped the D.

Also around that same time was Richardson's "40 minutes of hell", now that was some running and gunning.
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fastbrk4
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Don't worry about me leaving the board--it's good to read and share opinions. javascript:emoticon(':D') I agree with Chuck regarding the Defense played under Evans and Barnes. We were playing the best man-to-man in the nation for about a 3-4 yr stretch. Evans was a great coach and Barnes a great assistant. What killed Barnes was recruiting mostly. Everybody knows Barnes had the teams playing hard but the offense was stagnant.

Think about this...The exact same team that Barnes finished last with the prior year Kennedy added The Beard and Polynice and won the West and went to the NIT. Abernathy led the nation in assist to turnover ratio that year and the team was one of the most "disciplined", if I can use that word, I've ever seen.

Year two (just last year folks) under Kennedy, we lost the entire backcourt to graduation prior to the season (Abernathy, Sanders, and Doyne). With 3 new starting guards and a returning frontcourt, we had a great run with an NIT final four appearance. This team was the best rebounding team in the SEC for most of the year and one of the best rebounding teams in the nation. This was just last year, how quickly we forget.

It's been a unique and difficult 3 years for AK and he's done well all things considered. He had 3 seniors in the backcourt for 1 season, lost them all at once and replaced them with some good highly talented players in Warren and Polynice, Gaskins (I'm not that high on, but whatever) and they had a nice year last year. Here we are year 3 and expected the loss of the entire frontcourt (again 3 seniors), but then to lose your starting point guard (best scorer) and one of your starting wings (who happened to be your best slasher and defender), now you're talking 4 new starters the exception being D. Huertas. Then in your first SEC game you see that you are going to have to go a new direction at the point 1) because you need another scorer on the floor and 2) Bogan has just not matured quickly enough. Bottom Line, AK has done a hell of a job under the circumstances and I don't think we could ask for much more to this point. I do believe the next 2 years we'll have more roster stability and we should see steady improvement and NCAA tournament invites.

What makes a coach? To me, it's constantly adjusting/adapting. AK has done a great job of that. Yes, we've looked like $hi+ in a couple games this year, but our rebounding has vastly improved since early in the season. Our defense has improved also. Shooting is always an area that is not consistent and is not based on effort so you have to live with bad shooting nights--that's just basketball. I also like the adjustment of moving Terrico to the point and looks what's happening there now.

I believe AK has a very strong desire to win and that may be his most important trait. When losing eats at you that hard, then you cannot settle and I thing that's what you are going to see. His determination combined with some good recruiting is going to take Ole Miss basketball a long way. Memphis becoming a "national power" is going to help Ole Miss a lot. While Calipari is in New Jersey, AK can be in Memphis getting players like Terrico. I really wish we would renew that series. :D :D
Last edited by fastbrk4 on Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
fastbrk4
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Rebchuck18 wrote:
ekmjr1 wrote: Even his worst games or better than many of the past years as fastbrk4 stated, so it's not all bad.
Have to disagree with you on that one. I have been watching Ole Miss Basketball for more than 30 years and the worst games in AK's reign are among, if not alone as, the most unorganized and fundamentally unsound games I have ever seen.

Defense, or even any defensive pretense, blocking out, passing and running a structured offense is almost nonexistent. In fairness though this is also reflective of the overall deterioration of the college game in general.

It is absolutely painful to watch at times.
We'll have to agree to disagree. Ed Murphy years were by far the worst and I'll give two points on this--
1) Ole Miss played NO DEFENSE under Ed Murphy. It was so bad that Evans set Joe Harvell, the SEC's leading scorer) on the bench because Ed Murphy didn't even teach his players how to get into a defensive stance.
2) One winning record (by one game) and wasted 2 of the best teams talent-wise we've ever had. He didn't make players better, that's not a good coach. If Gerald Glass would've been coached by Evans or Barnes he would have been an NBA superstar but he couldn't play defense and that's because Ed didn't coach it. The offense sucked, the defense sucked, it all sucked under Ed Murphy. I was there, I felt the pain. Paper bags on student's heads, PAPER BAGS. We got blowed out by 30, 40 points with regularity. Kentucky looked at us like a Jr High team. They'd press us and we couldn't cross half court.
1986-87 15-14 8-10 6th Ed Murphy
1987-88 13-16 6-12 8th Ed Murphy
1988-89 15-15 8-10 6th Ed Murphy Gerald Glass
1989-90 13-17 8-10 5th Ed Murphy Gerald Glass
1990-91 9-19 3-15 8th Ed Murphy
1991-92 11-17 4-12 5th-W Ed Murphy
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